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- Split: Split: For Hope and Steve
Hey all!
thank you so much for your encouragement and support — Steve, his stinky brother and I really and truly appreciate it.
It is amazing how silly they can make us look — when I brought him in today I said they needed to check PCV because gums were pale. He goes trotting to back and I hear him barking and stomping around back there. Then, they come out and say his PCV is at 41% and he was acting out in the back. I’ve never been more happy to be wrong!
Patrice – thank you for all of your knowledge on this!! it makes perfect sense… i do hope his nervous system responses perk up soon. have there been cases where this has not happened? or would those be the cases where the pups have to stay on Pred long term?
thanks all for everything.. i would be lost (or committed) without all of you!
Hope and Food-Crazed Steve
Patrice, wow what a great explanation! Something I will remember and so interesting.
Thank you for all you do!
tamara and ashki xoxox
Hi Hope!
Sorry – I lost my messages to you yesterday – just to say we would never, ever be upset with you. You must do what you think is right for YOUR boy & I know you think very carefully about everything. We did a 50% per week reduction with Worzel – terrifying! When he dropped from 10mg once per day, we went to 10mg every other day (instead of 5mg every day) because our specialist believed this was around the wake up point for the adrenals & in his experience this was better. We constantly discuss this on here – it’s hard to say exactly when these glands wake up. All I can say is they do get withdrawal symptoms big time, but Worzel was worst in the first 2 weeks of reduction. Don’t forget Worzel’s form of normochromic normocytic IMHA was different from most of you guys & this is why I would never recommend anyone to do this drastic reduction in normal circumstances, as it can easily end in an upset. His PCV shot up after 10 days (PCV31) 2 weeks (PCV 42) after he started the azathioprine & he did not have a problem with intravascular haemolysis as the problem was in his bone marrow, and he was not at risk from the clotting problems ( he had no agglutination, spherocytes, platelet clumping etc etc) that many dogs experience. I also took Worzel to the vet the day before the reduction & 3 days after – a lot of visits & he HATED it.
I am really happy things are going well – keep up the brilliant work. I am also very happy your were “wrong” too but what a nice way to find out his PCV is 41! Better to get these these worries checked out in my view – I am of the “you can’t be too careful” club, as you know. Apologies for not mentioning you need to check gums when they are fully awake & moving around a bit, otherwise you can easily be fooled into thinking they are too pale.
Anyway, great news – keep us posted & try not to thump that lovely husband of yours!
Love Sheena, Worzel & Ollie xxx
Morning Sheena!
Thank you for your kind response.. I don’t know what I would do without you guys and mentor pups! Worzel’s story brought to mind a question — do dogs usually decrease in PCV initially when reductions begin? Since their adrenal glands are “waking up” so to speak… as in it takes a little bit of time for that to happen? Or should the whole point be that their bodies should jump in where the Pred was and maintain a stable PCV?
It’s funny.. I was talking to a friend of mine that just finished her residency in Pediatrics. She had known vaguely that Steve was sick but she asked “what exactly does he have?” and I told her and she’s like “are you kidding me?! Dogs get AIHA?! What meds are he on?” When I told her MMF, she almost passed out. She’s like “I was working on liver donor cases last week and I was prescribing that to people!” I told her that now is a crazy/scary/pivotal time and she said that if he is not going to tolerate the Pred reduction she would think it would happen soon, as in I would see it soon. It’s been a full 48 hours+ of him being on a lesser dose and she said she would think in people anyway that that was enough time for a change to happen, if it were. Is that true?
Husband had said that Steve was “passed out big time” right before I walked in the house so I think that maybe that was why they were so pale. I’m going to take him for a walk this AM when it gets light out and I’ll see how they look. How often did you take Worzel in for PCV checks once his reductions started? I will obviously bring Steve in if something likes amiss (and gladly put my foot in my mouth once again!) but I was thinking of every 2 days anyway because I am just too nervous and want to try to catch any relapse early.
Thanks for everything!!
xoxo Hope and Twitchy Dreaming Steve (and Gassing Jeffrey)
One more question! If Steve were to look bad and have a significant decrease in PCV, would they most likely put him back up at initial dosage or somewhere in the middle? They did quite a liberal (in my mind) reduction from 50mg –> 30mg each day. I’m just wondering because we aren’t due to see the vet again for another week since today’s PCV was 41% and I was wondering what I would do if (knock on wood, i.e. husbands head) it went down significantly..assuming that I will be there between now and next week for more PCV checks. Because that’s how I/we hypervigilant parents are!
xoxo Hope
Hope,
The adrenal glands atrophy over time when we administer a high dose of prednisone. This can cause Iatrogenic Cushing’s Disease.
Iatrogenic means “of or relating to illness caused by medical examination or treatment.”
Cushing’s Disease, which is essentially an excess of cortisol in the body, does occur in dogs due to organic disease, such as a tumor growth on the adrenal glands.
But the symptoms for both are pretty much the same, excess cortisol causes multiple unwanted side effects and over time can lead to serious health issues.
Dogs with Iatrogenic Cushing’s have two small atrophied adrenal glands. I can’t say always, but in just about every case I have seen in the past, dogs seem to recover the function of the gland once the prednisone is reduced.
The desired result of decreasing the prednisone is to get it down to a level that matches what the body would produce for itself. Once you reach a certain dosage, (and that varies according to many factors such as weight etc), the prednisone no longer provides the function of immunosuppression. At that point it is merely attempting to replace what the body would need throughout the day to respond to stress. (And remember stress to a dog can mean anything even mildly stimulating.)
At that point there is a challenge to the body during stress that requires cortisol. There are intricate systems in place that provide the feedback that this is needed and a message is sent out to the adrenals to respond. If they are atrophied, they may receive the message but not be able to respond at all or very little. Over time, as you decrease, they will begin to respond better.
So the tricky part is determining what the lowest dose of prednisone is that begins to challenge the adrenals. The accepted practice for most dogs we have seen is to decrease about 25-33% every two or three weeks. When you reach lower doses that are not immunosuppressive, a schedule is started that is kind of like “training wheels” for the glands. Dose every other day for instance.
The goal is to wake the glands up but also make sure that your dog has enough cortisol to properly respond to stress. Most every dog is going to feel fatigued. They may be reluctant to go for a walk. What we worry about is if they cannot respond to excitement well. If they are suddenly on alert and the body cannot get the message out “increase blood flow, get more oxygen to the brain and muscles, slow down digestion” they may jump up in response to their alerted nervous system and then collapse. Have I ever heard of a dog doing this during these reductions? No. Is it possible? Maybe.
How long does this take? Hard to say because each dog is different, just as humans who go through this are different. I have done this decrease. I felt just awful. And I had only been on prednisone for about 3 weeks.
So the best way to approach this is to follow the instructions your vet gives you carefully. I think once we describe this to owners they understand the need to reduce carefully. What would not be good is if an owner decided to go cold turkey and stop it suddenly.
Some dogs also may have other conditions that have been responding to prednisone. Arthritis, colitis etc improve with prednisone. Reducing the med will make these conditions worse again. So not only is your dog feeling weak, they are also feeling more joint pain or having digestive problems again. You may think that your dog is relapsing! It is so hard to tease out all the influences prednisone has on the body.
my best, patrice
Hope,
If he were to significantly drop in PCV in one week, it would be most likely due to a re-occurrence of autoimmune hemolytic anemia. All the signs of that would be apparent, very pale gums, weakness, dark urine and/or stools, loss of appetite. Reading your descriptions of his treatments and recovery makes this appear to be less likely to occur. However, no one can guarantee. Can the PCV drop a little in the next week? Sure, the body is still recovering and the process is not running smoothly yet. If you go back next week and you get 37%, that is still quite mild anemia.
If a relapse did reoccur, then they would have to put him back on a high dose again and also step up the dose on the other meds. The immune system would need to be suppressed again.
Does this happen? Sometimes. We have seen more dogs that have had ITP (destruction of platelets) relapse.
You do need to work closely with your vet. If you are worried in the middle of the night you can also reach out to us, there is always one of us awake and watching the website, we literally span the globe. We can help you think through what you need to do.
Please try not to worry so much, I know hard to do, but when you do you telegraph that to Steve and he picks up on it. He thinks he is doing something wrong. Go back to your normal routine, modified, and approach everything as though it were going to be normal. But give him plenty of quiet time. Keep guests etc at a minimum. No trips, no exposure to other dogs. Simple diet.
my best, patrice