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Woohoo I can post again ..
Well I’ll try and keep things short .. last blood test flossies hematocrete was at 46 … that was 2 weeks ago. She’s been off Prendisone for 2 weeks now.Just had a blood test again today – results tomorrow.
What we are dealing with now are crusty sores on her back, neck. tail, underarms. belly etc. Vet did a scraping today and came back bacterial staph. So we are trying a medicated shampoo to see if that takes care of it.
She’s still on 100mg. of cyclosporine every other day and just the natural stuff now.
I think it’s they cyclo causing it and the vets think it’s not that she’s suffering from an allergy airborne or food. Suggested I see a dermatologist. Not sure what to do.
Anyone have any experience using colloidal silver externally and is it safe for AIHA dogs ?
Other than this Flossie is doing great. Eating well, and Playful is an understatement ! ..
But the crusty sores ,hair falling out and excessive itching is unbearable to watch. So we are trying to figure out what to do. Our vet today also suggested an acupuncturist which there is one locally so that’s a thought ..
Anyhow anyone have any thoughts or wisdom that I can have ?
Now that I can post I’ll be back to read and give encouragement to others on this journey.
Blessings ..Sara
Woo hoo Sara. I’m glad your back.
I’m certain you’re right, it’s the immune suppression that’s caused the staph. Prednisone is known to do it. How long has Flossie been off the pred now? It could be that it may start to improve. You need to keep it very clean.
https://www.secondchanceaihadogs.com/AIHA_Terms/staph-infection/
I’ve used colloidal silver myself. Didn’t notice anything with it. Never game enough to use it on Bingo.
Vally and Bingo.
Xxx
She’s been off the Pred for 14 days now .. it seemed to come on like a vengeance once they took her off the pred . That’s what’s confusing me. She has such opposite reactions to things it’s so weird.
Last night we cleaned it with coconut oil. then added a mixture of antibiotic cream and cortisone cream and covered it in Gold Bond powder .. she stopped itching all together and slept the entire night. and is still doing well this morning. So not to say that will cure the staph but it was good to see her sleep and not dig and scratch all night.
I’m considering the colloidal silver .. I can’t see anywhere , where it could be harmful only helpful and everything says the problem is when too much is given internally for too long .. well I’m not thinking internally .. just externally .. so we will see .. I just don’t want her on another internal antibiotic if at all possible the last 2 times she had reactions to both antibiotics they prescribed.
Sara,
It is extremely common for conditions like allergies to be suppressed while on prednisone. Other conditions, for instance arthritis, are also improved while on prednisone. This is due to the antiinflammatory behavior of prednisone.
So excited owners can’t wait to get their dog’s prednisone reduced only to find that the dog seems to be feeling worse, arthritis pain returns or allergic symptoms return.
So what seems puzzling to you, this happening once the pred is removed is actually to be expected.
However, staph is something that usually increases as the body’s immune system is suppressed.
I don’t like the sound of the way it looks. Some types of staph can become more serious than others. One particular strain is called MRSA. I mention that in the link that Vally sent you. MRSA can be very difficult to treat in both humans and dogs.
I think right now it would be wise to see a dermatologist just to be sure that you are providing a treatment that will clear this up effectively.
Chance had life altering allergies and it was very difficult for us to treat him. I know how heartbreaking it is to see a dog scratch and chew themselves down to raw skin.
I would suggest using a medicated shampoo like chlorhexidine dog shampoo. I have used Douxo Chlorhexidine PS Shampoo with great success, also Malaseb was critical in easing the itch and healing the skin. Check with your vet first about this, but I think they will agree that this will calm the skin down.
my best
patrice
Thanks Patrice .. I was sent home with that exact shampoo yesterday .. just not the maleseb ..
I wasn’t puzzled so much by the allergies returning after coming off the prendisone but puzzled because the cyclosporine is supposed to also be for allergies and itching ..so that’s where my being puzzled came in. In my mind I was thinking that if she’s got allergies and she’s itching and the cyclo is for that .. then is it doing anything at all ?
I know for a fact she has allergies as before she was diagnosed on April 24th with AIHA .. the month leading up to it she was itching scratching horribly . No Bumps or bites etc .. just scratching and biting at normal skin.
She wasn’t like this always .. seemed to come on when she was just about 2-1/2 yrs old. So I didn’t think food allergy because she had been on the same food … with no issues .. and it seemed that she ended up with watery eyes and sneezing after going out for walks so my thought was it’s an airborne allergy.
Anyhow it looks like it’s back but this time it’s affecting the skin . I have found 2 vets in town now showing they treat holistically and one is an acupuncturist .. so I have a call into that one to get an opinion on how we can treat the allergies naturally if at all possible or a combo of natural and meds. I’m for whatever helps with the least amount of harm to her at this point.
Thanks for your input and help.!
Sara,
Actually, dogs with a predisposition to autoimmune atophy tend to express this early in their lives, around 2 or so. Chance did this. It was a sign that something else loomed in the future, his autoimmune bone marrow failure.
Chance’s allergies came on with a vengeance and we were just completely flummoxed. We did not have a clue in 2000 why this could be happening to a young puppy. We certainly wasted a lot of time dancing around the issue, a bit in denial. I tried so many over-the-counter things, but none of them worked. The vet suggested we see a veterinary dermatologist and we were very hesitant about that. It would be an expensive visit.
Finally, when our lives became upside down because of his allergies, we did relent and see the vet dermatologist specialist. There were two sets of tests, a blood test and a scratch test. The blood test is imperfect and she warned us it would not be very specific nor improve treatment. The scratch test was very specific and it showed a whole panel of things he was allergic to. From this, they eventually developed his own personal serum that became his allergy shots.
She also wanted us to do a elimination diet, but I was savvy enough, like you, to realize that he was only bothered during the spring and the fall, and much less the rest of the year. I did remove chicken from his diet because he had always refused to eat it anyway and I think he was allergic to it. I had fed him a raw diet, per the breeder, right from the start. For the bulk of his life after this he got raw meaty lamb bones or pork shoulders, no chicken.
So the dermatologist told us that the best treatment would be allergy shots. (This was long before Atopica came to market.) Boy were we reluctant about that! In the end, I knew I had to do it for him, his life was miserable. So this was wildly expensive and the schedule and dosing was very complicated and specific. She also told us it would take a year, possibly longer, for the shots to become effective. Until then we had to use other measures to control his symptoms.
She gave me a long list of approved antihistamines with their canine doses and insisted we use Malaseb shampoo. She also prescribed Temaril-P (Trimeprazine 5mg, Prednisolone 2mg) for us to use during the worst times. So for maybe 2-3 weeks in the spring and fall I would dose him with this to allow his skin to heal and to give him relief from the agony. This medication was a life saver. I still highly recommend it to owners whose dog’s allergies return after being in treatment for AIHA but have discontinued the prednisone, since the dose of prednisone is quite small.
He began to respond to the allergy shots the following year and from then on, he was virtually free of allergic symptoms other than a little eye gooping during the worst pollen season. We also continued the malaseb shampoo throughout his life which really improved his skin and coat. This shampoo fights bacteria but it also fights yeast. Dogs that work themselves raw significantly increase the growth of yeast on the skin and this burns terribly, making it a vicious cycle of destruction. So part of treatment had to include stopping the dog from licking and also treating the yeast with Malaseb about every 10 days which works great.
All this manipulation of his immune system was not a good idea, but that wasn’t understood as well back then. This specialist told me that dogs with serious allergies were sometimes even put down because their lives were so miserable. Seriously. So for us, shots were a choice we made for his comfort, not for his longevity.
Atopica came on the market around 2007. This was the year that he developed autoimmune bone marrow failure. A specialist was clueless about how to treat him and only prescribed prednisone. Over several months his health diminished on very high doses of prednisone. It was only when we contacted Dr. Dodds did she insist he be put on cyclosporine. I struggled trying to find any of this human medication locally. It wasn’t available. My vets were working with Dr. Dodds and offered “we have Atopica on the shelf, will that work?” She replied that this was a perfect solution. So this was probably the first time a dog being treated by Dr. Dodds used Atopica, packaged for canine atophy! The capsules were so easy to dose and I could get them right at the vets’ office.
You are correct, cyclosporine (Atopica) is prescribed now for dogs with atopic allergies, it was researched and tested for marketing for canine atophy, not for autoimmune diseases, but is now used, off label, for many different conditions other than allergies! It has saved many dog’s lives that would have been put down in 2000 for intractable allergies. Dosing is important with this drug. There is a ramp up period where the drug is dosed at a higher dose to “load” the system and then the vet will experiment with a lower maintenance dose to see what works well for the specific dog. The idea is to control the atophy at the lowest maintenance dose possible.
I also noticed with Chance taking high dose Atopica that he did develop what are called hyperplastic skin lesions. They looked pretty horrible but he never itched his skin or had any irritation from these growths. Many dogs do get these and similar skin conditions.
The action by which cyclosporine works (a fungus) is to disrupt the growth of rapidly growing cells, in this case the T-cell lymphocytes that are responsible for autoimmune attacks like allergies or AIHA. This disruption of fast growing cells is also directed at skin cells (epithelial) and thus you can see this abnormal growth not only on the skin but also on the gums and sometimes the pads of the paws. The skin’s genetic blueprint for making cells becomes altered and “skin” looks very different than what was planned.
“Hyperplastic skin lesions occasionally develop during treatment with cyclosporine A. Most of the lesions resemble those of psoriasiform lichenoid dermatosis, although papillomavirus can be detected in some instances.”
But here’s some specific and important information I found about Springer Spaniels and a hereditary condition Psoriasiform-lichenoid dermatosis.
“Psoriasiform-lichenoid dermatosis is a rare skin disease of Springer Spaniels characterized by symmetrical papules, plaques and nodules.
(see picture here: )
http://www.vetbook.org/wiki/dog/images/a/ab/Psoriasiform01.jpg
The marked breed predilection suggests heritability. The aetiology is not known but this disease may represent an atypical Staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection.
The condition is primarily observed in young dogs with lesions on the pinnae, ventral truncal region and genitals.
Over time, the lesions progress to hyperkeratotic lesions with adherent crust and keratinaceous debris. Follicular casts may be observed.
Chronic cases resemble severe seborrhea with malodor a definite part of the history and Staphylococcal pyoderma may be seen as a secondary factor.
Resolution may be achieved with prolonged courses of cephalexins such as Cefovecin. The use of cyclosporin, which is used for lichenoid keratoses in other breeds is usually unrewarding.”
So this resembles what you are describing and matches your breed. I think this is worthy of mentioning to your vet and perhaps a visit with a dermatologist specialist is called for. I think attempting to treat a condition like this with acupuncture is an unfortunate redirection away from medicine and proper clinical diagnosis.
Since this condition is considered relatively benign , and if they are causing no discomfort, then antibiotic treatment is optional. That is your choice after discussing it with your vet. There could still be some degree of atophy. The shampoos used about every 10 days may be enough to keep the itching under control.
my best
patrice
Hi Patrice and Gals.. Oh my I can’t believe how long it’s been since I last came and posted. It’s been quite a year for us with Flossies illness and moving cross country.
Patrice I just read your above info. Thank You ! I am going to look into the hereditary Scoriasis. I will discuss it with my vet.
Well we are 15 days out from Flossie being taken off her last med ( cyclosporine). So far so good. Had her blood test yesterday. I think it should come back fine, Gums still bright red as well as eyes , lots of energy and eating very well. Now it will be just keeping an eye on her and frequent blood tests to keep check on her. And she has lost 11 lbs over the last 5 months and is back to her normal weight pre-meds.
I started her on Bovine Colostrum (human grade) about 2 or 3 months ago. I had read a lot of great things about it and was willing to give it a go. I noticed within a few weeks of giving it diminished itching and her hair has grown so thick and beautiful back to pre-sickness.
She also gets ACV in her water , Goats milk Kefir 3 times a day, (great for Gut / Probiotic) , Fish Oil, Milk Thistle twice daily ( On3 weeks off 2), These are what we are down to daily. I am thinking of adding Quercitin for Allergies to her regimen. I understand that takes some time to begin working and you have to take breaks in giving it .. so will do some more research on that.
She still has some itching but I am waiting a few more weeks to see if that takes care of itself I tried switching her diet a month ago to a single protein of turkey .. within 10 days she was itching like crazy so I put her back on her dry Acana duck and pear food and now 3 weeks later the itching and break out are slowly diminishing. So I think we will stick with dry food and not try to go raw or homemade right now.
April 21st 2017 will be the 1 year mark for her. So we still have a ways to go before that first year is behind us . I know that doesn’t mean that it cannot recur. Vet just said the likelihood diminishes with each year and month that passes so I guess that’s what I hold onto.
I hope you all are well Happy New Year to you Ladies with hearts of Gold.
Blessings ..Sara
Sara, 17 days, but who’s counting. Well done Flossie, oh and well done mum.
I’d love to add some ACV to Bingo’s diet or water, but he WILL NOT touch anything I add it to. I’ve tried a few drops at a time, but he smells it a mile away and is too well fed to worry about skipping a meal to make a point so I can learn my lesson.
Sara, I’m so, so glad Flossie is doing so well.
Lots of love, Vally & Bingo
xxx