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- Bingo – likes to make me worry
Hi Vally
I am sorry this is happening and I know you must be really worried. I wish I had some advice for you. It’s interesting to hear about the collar and I suppose this is possible, if it was a bit sore or restrictive? I think ringing the specialist to ask about the adrenal glands is a good idea.
Please do let us know what the vet says.
Much love, Mary & Mable x
Vally, I’m thinking of you and Bingo. I wish I had some advice or knowledge too. It makes sense that if his collar is too tight it could affect him? Looking forward to hearing how he is, and what the vet says, I’m glad you can talk to the specialist soon.
love and hugs from tamara and ashki xoxoxo
Bingo has behaved since last night. I’ve been watching him til my eyes are crossed, but I think before dinner seems to the “the time” so I’ll be really really watching then.
The barking I’m pretty sure is not because he’s pre-seizure, but very food related. He’s always like this with all his food and all his treats.
I’m just wondering if we’ve hit the lowest we can go with pred and his adrenal glands are not coping.
And we got through dinner. I literally through his meal at him because he started barking for it and I was scared to let him get too worked up.
It was too early really as he’d had his thyroxine about 55 minutes earlier. I snuck into the kitchen to get his food ready so he wouldn’t have to wait while I put it together. Well of course he knows what I’m doing and he follows me in. A few little woofs to let me know he’s waiting before he goes into full blown barks. I’m trying to get his dinner finished, watching him, watching the time and I hurriedly got it down to him just a few minutes early. I don’t know what my blood pressure would have been. Anyway, he finished eating, cleaned his mouth on the carpet and went to get his blanket to play. He got his ball for me to toss a couple of times, but we’re not pushing it tonight.
I may delay ringing the vet tomorrow if nothing untoward happens tonight. Try and get through another day and see how he goes with tomorrow’s dinner.
I’m really really hoping it was the collar that may have just been a bit too tight and when he gets worked up at feeding time, it’s constricted his throat.
Or, the fact that it’s happened each time while he’s loosing it waiting for me to get his dinner for him, makes me think it’s food related (sugar lows?) or his adrenal glands aren’t coping with him stressing out over dinner on this latest reduction.
He’s not as bad food wise in the morning, lunch or supper time. At dinner he’s always starving. Anyway that’s what I’m hoping.
Love Vally and well stuffed.
Vally,
This is an interesting and puzzling (and frightening) thing happening to Bingo.
Let me tell you about Chance and see if this sounds familiar to you. After he recovered from treatment for his bone marrow failure he returned to relatively normal life. For about 2.5 years he was fine but then he started having similar symptoms. He started “tipping over” while walking. He would act a little dizzy and then down he would go. He would sometimes paddle his feet and cry out.
Of course I started with my local vet. The chest x-ray showed an enlarged heart. Immediately we saw the specialist. He did a variety of tests on the heart, including an echocardiogram. He was diagnosed with a mitral value deficiency and an arrhythmia. This would eventually worsen and would lead to congestive heart failure. He put Chance on several heart medications and he improved significantly.
Over several visits, and with more information from me, the specialist and I talked about these collapses. I had taken a video showing Chance doing this and he confirmed what I also felt, though this looked like it could be a seizure, it was not.
I described that I had noticed this seemed to be preceded by several things, one of which was taking a large drink of cold water. Then he would cough or gag and then a short while later he would collapse, just as you describe. He would also set himself off by barking.
So the specialist gave me a veterinary research paper that described the effect that the vagus nerve can have on a dog’s heart. This large nerve runs through the neck. In particular, with the anatomy of a dog, this nerve runs more horizontal than it does in a human, under the neck of the dog, where it can be compressed. Coughing (or eating) can lead to more pronounced pressure on this nerve. This stimulates this nerve in a variety of ways.
“Vasovagal syncope occurs in response to a trigger, with a corresponding malfunction in the parts of the nervous system that regulate heart rate and blood pressure. When heart rate slows, blood pressure drops, and the resulting lack of blood to the brain causes fainting and confusion” (This is simply describing fainting!)
There is a significant list of things that can trigger this response. But one in particular of note is “Violent coughing.” We discussed Chance drinking cold water, followed by coughing or gagging or perhaps his barking and how that could be causing this vasovagal syncope.
There is a significant difference between seizures and syncope. A seizure takes longer to start, during this time the dog seems less alert. During the seizure the dog is most likely not alert at all. They may take a long time to recover after a seizure. A dog that has a syncope can be walking along fine, begin to wobble and down they go. They can paddle or vocalize (which may happen in seizures) but if you look in their face you see they they are conscious. After only a brief time they will recover, get up and continue on as if nothing happened. This was Chance. Down in an instant and a few minutes later trotting home again like nothing had happened.
We agreed that this was the most likely cause of his irregular heart rate and the reason why he was having these frightening episodes. I was also approached by one of the vets at my clinic who explained that she had this condition and she had to be careful herself about compressing this nerve or she would go down in a heap.
The dog’s heart is quite close to the throat and when it enlarges, it can actually compress the neck and that is why coughing is one of the first signs of canine heart conditions.
So our goal was to treat the fluid buildup around the heart, helping it to reduce size to normal. I also started giving Chance tepid water, no more cold drinks. I also reduced the amount of water he could get at one drink. Giants can drink an incredible amount of water!
You are right on about the use of a harness. If this is what is happening with Bingo, it probably reduces the compression of the neck as well.
So it might be a wise thing to have your vet do a bit of a heart workup in the office to see if everything sounds good.
Even without a heart problem, a dog’s anatomy can cause abnormal compression of the neck. It might be good to reduce the amount of water and food he can get at one time so there isn’t a lot of gulping and stimulation of the neck. If this were me, I might try to slightly elevate the food bowl to avoid severe forward bending of the neck.
There is no specific test, only using a 24 hour Holter Monitor can possibly pinpoint this because the owner keeps a diary of each activity and can note when there was a collapse. We used this with Chance but he didn’t have an episode during the time he had the vest on.
If you want to read about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasovagal_response
This is a somewhat complex paper about this condition in small dogs:
Read this article directed towards owners:
http://www.vetspecialistsofsfl.com/cardiology_articles_Syncope.html
If any of this sounds like it could be the issue, take these papers with you to your vet so that they can see you understand this condition. They may be able to say one way or another whether this is the case with Bingo. They can help you treat any possible conditions that are contributing to this.
my best, patrice
Okay, that’s really interesting. Some of this does sound very familiar. Last time he was at the vets and I mentioned what had happened (a week earlier) and they did check his blood pressure (so perhaps they’re thinking along these lines as well) and did full CBC again – all came out fine.
I called the specialist yesterday, but I missed his call last night, he’s going to call me today. I’ll put this to him. Bingo’s been fine the last 2 days since loosening the collar and I’m really hoping that’s what has caused all this – that’s the easy no-worries solution but is it ever that simple? He went through the usual “I’m starving” barking and carrying on last night, with me watching him and watching him and watching him (etc) but thank goodness, nothing happened.
I’ll let you know what he vet says.
Love Vally & Bingo.